An Interview with Herod

PART I Interviewer: Today we want to talk to man the world calls, "Herod the Great". He steps out of the pages of the bible and of history so that we can better understand the part played at the birth of Jesus. Welcome, King Herod. King Herod: "I'm glad to be here." I haven't had the chance to speak out for myself in centuries, and I appreciate the opportunity to set the record straight.

Interviewer: You're going to have to pardon me, but I'm not quite sure how to address you. Are you comfortable with the title, Herod the Great? King Herod: Of course I'm comfortable with it. It sets me apart from those lesser Herods. My sons, my grandsons. I alone am the Great Herod, and I worked hard to deserve that title.

Interviewer: Then you wanted to be famous? King Herod: Yes, and I am famous, and that's part of the sentence where I come from, when we get exactly what we've always wanted. I wanted to be thought the great and mighty ruler of my time. Huh, I have the title of Herod the Great. People like you want to rub my nose in it. You don't appreciate what I am! Interviewer: Now wait a minute, I didn't mean to offend you, its just that the title strikes me as being, I don't know.

.. (voice trails off)...

grand? King Herod (interrupts): Grand?! Grand! Well it should be grand! Every time someone like you reads my story in the second chapter of Matthew, I feel as though I'm being demeaned. Every time some boy in a church pageant, wearing an old bathrobe and some crown on his head tries to imitate me, I feel the insult. I've got fame, but it's distorted. That's why I've taken your invitation. Perhaps for once I can set the record straight.

Interviewer: Well then, let's get to it. I understand, King Herod, that you were a cruel king. In fact, you wanted to kill Jesus when you heard about him. King Herod: I'm not going to deny that, but I had to reign with a firm hand. Being a king isn't easy, you can't take power for granted.

That was particularly true in my situation. My father was appointed procurator of Judea by Julius Caesar in what you would call 47 B.C. He appointed me the military prefect of Galilee and that was my chance to make my mark and I made it. I devoted myself to that position with the enthusiasm that the Roman authorities appreciated.

Interviewer: And that's the position of military prefect. How long did you occupy that position? Herod: About 7 years. During that time there was political turmoil in Rome and Caesar was assassinated. Anthony took his place and I made it a point to get along with Anthony. By 40 B.

C., I was made the king of the Jews by the Roman Senate. Interviewer: Your promotion to that position must have been satisfying -- to get what you wanted. Herod (interrupting): You don't understand, I'm only partly Jewish. And the Romans never really trusted me because they considered me a Jew, but the Jews never trusted me because I wasn't fully Jewish.

You know standing in the middle isn't easy ground to occupy, I tell you that. Judea was nothing but a little back water province. It gave Rome little, but trouble. Interviewer: So how did you handle that new position? Herod: I knew those Jews wouldn't love or respect me, but I could make them fear me. They wouldn't willingly give me their support.

I had to take it by force. It was the only thing for me to do . . . for them.

Interviewer: For them?! You mean for the Jewish people? Herod (interrupting): Yes, of course, if I couldn't keep them in line then the Romans would send in their armies and take control. That would have been far worse for everybody. Wouldn't it? Wouldn't it? Interviewer: I suppose so, but you've a reputation going beyond what you needed to do to keep order. Herod: What do you know about keeping order? Look, you have to do what you have to do. You have to exert your will unless you want to end up as everybody's rug.

You can't let people walk all over you! If you want to succeed in the power game, you've got to get them before they get you. Interviewer: But, you're a savage, you're brutal. Herod: Huh (snide laugh), I admit from your perspective I may seem brutal. Believe me what I did was necessary. Interviewer: But didn't you have your wife murdered? Herod: I had no choice! You've got to understand I didn't marry for romance, it was political.

The woman was a Hasmonean. The Hasmoneans were my chief rivals. I wanted to turn enemies into friends. That's why I married her. Didn't work out as I had planned.

You know once a Hasmonean, always a Hasmonean! And so were her sons. They plotted against me. I had the evidence. And look, if you're serious about power, you've got to protect it or you'll lose it. You have to do what you have to do.

And besides, I had other wives and sons. Interviewer: It takes a pretty brutal man to wipe out members of his own family. Herod: You still don't get it, do you? Look, all of us use whatever power we have to get what we want. I suppose you don't think you or your listeners would ever do anything like that. Have you ever felt threatened? I mean, have you ever felt jealous? Have you ever wanted to get rid of somebody? To get that individual out of your life? Oh, you wouldn't consider murder.

You don't have the stomach for it. But you'll do it in other ways. Interviewer: In other ways? Herod: Yea, you'll savage people with your tongue. You'll tear them down. You'll cut people out of your life.

All kinds of people want to be free of their wives and husbands. Huh, they've gone to a divorce court to get their dirty work done. Don't look down you nose at me! We're all human. We do what we have to do to get our way. Interviewer: Well tell us then, a bit about your encounter with the Wise Men that Matthew tells us about in his history.

Herod: Oh, that! (Laughs) It's strange, I'd be remembered for that brief conversation I had with those star gazers from Persia. Who'd given the whole matter a second thought considering all the other projects I was engaged in at the time. Interviewer: Other projects, what do you mean? Herod: I was busy with important matters of state. I didn't squander my power. I used it for the benefit of the people.

I built great cities. Have you ever visited the land where I ruled? Interviewer: Yes, I've been there. Herod: Then you must have visited the ruins of some of those cities scattered across that land, even today! Great cities. The temple in Jerusalem. I built it.

I used massive stones to construct that magnificent place for the Jews to worship God. The top of that temple was covered with gold. Pilgrims seeing it from a distance said that its beauty took their breath away. Huh, those were important lasting public works projects. But does anyone remember me for those projects today? No.

All they think about is those astrologers from Persia and . . . that baby. Interviewer: Well then, tell us about them.

Do you remember their coming? Herod: Of course I do. In light of the way things turned out, how could I forget? One afternoon one of my aides came to my chambers. He announced we had visitors. Men who seemed to have some importance. He said they'd come a long way and wanted an audience with me.

At first I was tempted to put them off. After all, what can people like them do for people like me? Eh, but for some reason I decided to work them into my schedule. Interviewer: And? . . .

Herod: Well, they entered my rooms, and after the usual formalities, they got right down to their business: "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? We have seen His star in the east, we have come to worship Him." I guess they came to Jerusalem because it was the capital city. But we had heard nothing about a King. Certainly I had no new children. Interviewer: What did you tell them? Herod: Let's stop this, you know what I did.

You've heard that story so many times it's old. You sing songs about those Wise Men as you call them. All I knew is that all this talk about a new King represented a threat to me and to my power. Those Jews were longing for a messiah, some Deliverer who would save them from the Romans, take them out from all their troubles. For centuries they had been expecting a Savior.

My advisors and I didn't really believe that He'd made His appearance, but we also knew that messiahs can create themselves. You mix desperate longings with fanatic religion, you can produce a messiah. Interviewer: You were worried? Herod: Eh, concerned. I didn't know what to make of those sages from the east, but I felt I needed to get to the bottom of it. So I quickly summoned theologians and scholars and asked them what they could tell me.

They said according to the scriptures the Messiah would come to Bethlehem, that's a town about 5 miles south of Jerusalem. They didn't put much stock in it, though. None of them, for example, was interested in taking a trip down to Bethlehem to see if anything was going on. But you can never be too careful when your power is threatened. So I gave them directions to Bethlehem and I urged them to report to me what they found out.

Interviewer: Well, I can see why you would want to be concerned. But our time is gone now and we haven't heard all of your story. Will you come back tomorrow, and tell us why you indulged infanticide as a result of the Wise Men's visit? Herod: Yes, I'll be glad to. In fact, it's important for me to explain all of that, put it into perspective. I don't want you to think that I, Herod the Great could have been threatened by the birth of a mere baby.

  PART II Interviewer: Usually at Christmas, we focus on the positive side of what happened in the town of Bethlehem almost 2000 years ago. After all, this is when Jesus was born. But we also wanted to introduce you to another person who was involved in the early years of Jesus. His name is Herod. He was a king reigning in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus' birth.

He's often referred to as Herod the Great. And thank you, sir, for returning to be with us today. King Herod: I'm glad to be here, particularly glad to have the opportunity to set the record straight. I don't think I've been treated fairly by historians. I end up being mocked.

Interviewer: Mocked? In what way? Herod: I'm treated like some comic character in one of those wretched Christmas plays your churches stage every year. One boy who was supposedly playing me announced to everyone in the audience that he was "Herold the Grape." (Interviewer laughs) Everyone laughed just as you are laughing, as though I was some kind of joke. Interviewer: Don't you have a sense of humor? Herod: People don't realize who I was. During my reign, the people would not dare to mock me.

Now some of you wonder if I even existed. Interviewer: Of course, you did exist. That's undeniable. You're known not only through the account written by Matthew in the New Testament, but you're known by secular historians as well. You were "Herod the Great!" Herod: And I was great! For 41 years I was in power.

I made my presence known. All you have to do is visit Israel today and see what I did. Everywhere there are theaters and amphitheaters and monuments and altars to their gods and fortresses and public buildings and I built them or I restored them. Most impressive, I was the one who rebuilt the temple in Jerusalem. It took 88 years to complete it, but I began it.

I oversaw its construction for 24 years. They call that structure Herod's Temple. I deserve the title, "Herod the Great." Interviewer: Well I must admit what you had built must have been impressive -- even though it lies in ruin today, but you were also a cruel tyrant. You can't deny that.

Herod: I did what had to be done. You have to protect yourself. You know that. If you don't guard your power, someone will take it away from you. Interviewer: But King Herod, you were ruthless! Historians report that you murdered your wife, your three sons, your mother-in-law, brother-in-law, your uncle, and there were many others that were also murdered while you were on the throne.

Herod: I tried to explain that to you, don't you listen? All of those people wanted to topple me. I did what any other ruler would do. I wiped out the opposition. Kings, dictators, presidents; we all do it. One way or another, we do whatever it takes to destroy anyone who stands in our way at getting and holding power.

That's just reality. Interviewer: But your highness, you murdered little children. After the Wise Men came to Jerusalem and told you about the birth of Jesus, you murdered little children. Herod: Will you stop calling those astrologers, "Wise Men"! If you want my opinion, they were stupid. I mean why did they come to me, a king, to ask about the birth of a king? He was a threat to my throne.

What would they expect me to do? Sit by quietly and let him overthrow me? Interviewer: But you ordered that all the boys two years old and younger in Bethlehem be killed -- helpless infants that couldn't possibly have hurt you. Herod: To you, hah, it sounds like a heartless act. And it doesn't help by the church calling that, "the slaughter of the innocences." The whole matter was blown out of proportion, just to slander me. "Slaughter of the innocences" makes it sound like thousands.

How many boy babies, two and under, do you suppose there were in a town like Bethlehem? There weren't a thousand men in the entire community. It was no worse than what kings around me were doing. I mean read your headlines. No worse than bombs and bullets are doing in Belfast, Bosnia, and Africa, in the streets of your own city. Look, politics isn't for weak stomachs.

Timid people don't stay in control. I did what I had to do. I told you that before. Interviewer: But King, why? You shouldn't have been surprised about the birth of a King, after all, your own religious advisors had read about Jesus in the Scriptures. They were the ones who directed the wise men, "the emissaries from Persia" to Bethlehem.

They had read about this baby in their Scriptures. Why did you want to destroy Him? Why would you set yourself up against God Himself? Herod: I was threatened. You do all kinds of things when you're afraid. I was threatened, I tell you. Fear makes you strike out, doesn't it? Have you ever felt threatened by somebody? Interviewer: Well, sure, but.

.. Herod: But...

ah, you know how it felt. Listen to me, you ought to feel threatened. Threatened by that baby. After all, He didn't stay a baby, a cuddly infant you could carry around. That's what I wanted to say to you.

You should feel threatened. I have known about Him for 2000 years. Does me no good now. I should have wiped Him out when I had the chance, but it wouldn't have stopped Him. My son, Herod Antipas conspired with a Roman named Pilate to put Him to death.

And they succeeded. The two of them had Him crucified, killed Him. Eh, thy couldn't get rid of Him. He came back from the dead. He's a King as I could have never been a king.

He's eternal. He's a threat to any kingdom builder, I tell you. That's why He dangerous. Interviewer: But your Highness, I don't understand. What do you mean dangerous? Herod: He threatens all of us.

He's no sweet little lamb. He's more like a roaring lion. Oh, people are deceived by Him. Interviewer: I don't think many men and women in our day feel threatened by Him, though. Herod: They should.

Don't Christians refer to Him as Lord? Interviewer: Yes, we often refer to Him as the Lord, Jesus Christ. Herod: Do they know what they're saying? (laughing loudly) You have areas in your life in which you want to be lord? We all do! You and I all build our little kingdoms in which we dare Him to interfere. Your business, your sex life, your bank accounts, your relationships. You ought to keep those little territories away from Him. But I tell you this, you and that Baby can't both be Lords.

He threatens whatever you hold most dear to you. Interviewer: And you, King Herod. Your throne, that was most dear to you. Herod: Of course it was. I gave my life to ruling and He took it away.

I died and left all that I had built behind. And He remained. Look that Baby is no Lamb. He's a Lion disguised a Lamb. Interviewer: And yet, the bible presents Him both ways.

A Lamb and a Lion. Herod: I've come back to warn you. Christmas isn't for children. You all engage in this sentimental drivel. Music about winter, toy soldiers, chestnuts roasting on some stupid fire.

You have those pageants staged by unsuspecting youngsters featuring "Herold the Grape." Laugh if you want to, but Christmas isn't what you make it out to be. Christmas, Christmas represents danger to everything you hold with a tight fist. Interviewer: But what do you expect us to do with Christmas? Herod: Think about it, man, think about it! Christmas means that a new King has been born. An eternal King.

You can do one or two things with Him. You can fall down and worship Him as Lord and surrender Him you life and all your little kingdoms, and your dreams, and your designs, or you can quit your game playing and get rid of Him. Get as far away from Him as possible. Interviewer: And so, King Herod, that's what you want to tell us. That's your message, then.

Herod: Look, I had my opportunity. I had my chance. I made my choice. I lost. Now I'm linked to that reality for eternity.

All men and women who have heard that a King is born in Bethlehem will be linked to that reality. Forever. Will He be a King you worshipped? or, a King you've defied? Will He be someone who has saved you? or, one who judges you? I've said what I had to say. But you'd better not take it lightly. To the best of our knowledge this interview originally appeared on the Radio Bible Class program.